教育王國

標題: Some insights into the better ESF/Intl schools [打印本頁]

作者: esfpaststudent 時間: 07-10-13 08:02 標題: Some insights into the better ESF/Intl schools

Hi all,

I randomly came across this forum and was totally surprised by everything I saw. I was totally impressed by parents efforts and dedication they have spent in analyzing international schools.

I graduated from an ESF secondary school recently, (the traditonal 5, not one of the newer ones) and made the choice of going to a local university - the most elite one, and did the most elite course at that university. Thats the only reason why I stayed in Hong Kong. But I have deeply regreeted this and eventually made the choice to transfer to study abroad.

It appears that things have chnaged so much from say 6-7 years ago when I entered high school and so thats why I felt the compulsion to write some of my insider thoughts. Especially since it appears that many parents who are discussing on this forum have not gone through an ESF or an overseas education....and they appear to be just getting all their information from random people's opinions, rumours etc.

Everyone seems so concerned about getting in - yes, that is important, but I just wanted to provide some more long term advice.

1st point - you really shouldnt consider sending your child to a local HK university, unless you really cannot afford overseas. I made this dreadful mistake, mainly because I was attaracted by the course I was offered at this elite local university.

And one other point - if you are considering a career in business/ commercial / investment banking, corporate law etc - as many ESF grads go into these fields - you must go overseas for your education. All the biggest and best firms (who pay the most!) recruit almost exclusively from overseas universities, and almsot always from the best ones.

Fortunately - as an ESF graduate, and if you arent too dumb or anything - you should make it into an "elite" overseas university quite easily - it just happens, dont ask me how. We're are not particularly smart but just that LSE/Ivy League etc seem to take alot of us every year. It's easy trust me - i know for a parent it seems so far away - but beleive me - your child will get into a good university if he / she makes it into a ESF or any other good International school.

So dont waste his/her potential - dont go back and then send him back to a local university.

And its not just in terms of career, but also the people - ESF / International school kids VS Local kids are just totally different. We do not mix well. So going to a local university wasnt great in this aspect. So expect your child to come out being different, come out expecting him to be an i"ntl skool kid"....but thats prob the main reason why you are all considering sending your child to an Intl school rather than a local school - cuz you want your child to stand out.

And some parents ask about ranking of Intl schools - i think this is very hard to give. And one post which I read described the situation very well - group them into tiers.

Top tier will always be the traditonal and well established ones with western origins -

ESF (i think in my opinion all ESF are almost the same....same culture, same uni entrances...and when we are overseas universities and see ESF people, we tend to hang out and associate with each other very well, since we went through the same sort of education.)

ESF/GSIS/FIS/HKIS/CIS

In my opinion these are the best intl schools (in no ranking...its a tier, ok?)....all about the same. All have very good acadmic standards, get into good universities. But yes, I would generally agree that GSIS is slightly more rigourous. But if your child is smart, getting into say LSE/Ivy League should be equally easy whether he went to ESF or GSIS.

But they do have different foccus and culture:

GSIS - widely regarded as being the most academic and indeed this is true, best uni entrances, best A-Level etc.

ESF - mainly professional class, more down to earth, determined kids working for their aim. Not filled with "yee sai jo" rich kids. So the work atmosphere is good in all ESF schools (the 5 traditional ones i mean - IS, WIS, KGV, SIS, SC). Good uni entrances - we get into elite London Unis (LSE, UCL, KCL) quite easily as well as US Ivy Leagues or near-IVy Leaguges without much difficulty....provided your kid is decvent;ly smart. But if at a local school - many of these Unis would be very hard to access, unless your kid was super smart)

HKIS - more of a rich kids school, party school, but yet very high academic standards since many get into good Ivy Leagues. If you think your child has Ivy League potential and would enjoy an American culture, then this is good (btw....not everyone likes / suited for an American culture/education)

CIS - more of the local chinese rich people. business man, but also high standards and good uni entrances.

In my opinion, how to get in

I entered ESF in P6, many years ago, after having come back from overseas ( i was one of the kids from the migration generation). So for me, it was quite easy and back then the waiting list wasnt as long.

I know ESF teachers very well, they are nice, kind people - nthey are our firends by the time we come to Year 12-13....so dont get intimidated by them. What they really like and what they are really concerned with isnt academic ability alone - you have to be WESTERNSIED. You have to make your child behave as if he was brought up overseas. Back in my days, most of my classmates were retrunees from Canada, Australia, USA etc...so it wasnt as hard ...cuz we were genuinely "overseas". But I suspect what ESF teachers like is someone who will fit in with them - someone is isnt too "local"....for example...try to learn about life overseas (i know its hard, if you come from a totally local family)....in the interview....show international insight (if your child is old enough for this), when asked about past times - say things like "i play cricket with my dad" or I play rugby at the HKFC etc etc....not that Im saying you should lie - but rather eneterring ESF is a logn term thing - you shoudl try and make your chiold more international from a young age....take him to play western sports, hang out with western people or at least returnee chinese....the culutre betwen local and international families / returnees is very different. Try to mix and immerse with these people somehow - be it sports clubs, kowloon cricket club...that sort of stuff.....your child needs to feel international in order for the interviewer to feel comfortable admitting him / her. They are gwai los afterall, they dont like to be surrounded by parents/children who are totally different from them..

Whilst eveyrthing that I have read in this forum is very important and well said - like brushing up on your child's English, chosing the rightr address, strategically chosing schools based on their catchment zones etc...whilst all this is good - dont lose sight of the big picture - the gwai lo interviewers are looking for people who are like them - who are like their kids - who can fit into the school.

ESF in the past used to be very international - cuz it was mainly westeners, returnee chinese etc.....but nowadays the migration trend is over and most people who apply fopr ESF are locally born and bred - the ESF teachers want to preserve the atmosphere that was prevalent back in the late 1990s.

Thats my own opinion about ESF schools - they are not that harsh and unfriendly. They are nice people. But they are being so tough in the admission mainly bevcause of demand for places has risen so much and as such they want people who can genuinely fit into their culture - dont lose sight of the bigger picture in the search of a school for your kids. Good luck!!

Hope my insights have been of some help.

作者: Share 時間: 07-10-13 08:19

I am really impressed. But i still want my son to learn Chinese at this moment. I hope my son can fit in ESF's culture when he's 15 years old.

作者: 阿胡 時間: 07-10-13 09:37

謝謝分享! :D

一直都很想說讀IS再讀本地大學是一個很壞的選擇.

IS的學生和local school的學生是非常不同的"產品". 而本地大學的所有一切, 都讓IS的學生處於不利地位. Non-Jupas admission 只是在收錄學生這一關對IS學生開了一扇小門. 但更大的問題是在大學的幾年. 至於香港的job market, 對IS學生也是一個大問題.

一個IS的學生, 在本地大學讀書, 基本上是舍其所長, 用其所短! 英文語言能力, 是他們的長處, 但本地大學對英文的要求, 則基本上都是minimum. 儘管本地大學也用英文上課, 可是對絕大多數教授來說, 他們英文程度也是"麻麻". 因為本地大學對英文的要求不高, IS的學生的"短"就變的非常明顯. 以數學為例, 同local school相比, IS的數學訓練遠遠"不夠". 不是說IS的學生不夠聰敏, 而是local school的學生花了大量的時間做數學的重複練習而變得擅長考試. 這樣, 大部分IS出來的學生能跟上本地大學的數學課程都非常不容易. 就像你是一個一流網球選手, 但比賽的是圍棋.

最後結果可想而知.

作者: Yau_Cheung 時間: 07-10-13 12:21

原文章由 esfpaststudent 於 07-10-13 08:02 硐表
Hi all,

I randomly came across this forum and was totally surprised by everything I saw. I was totally impressed by parents efforts and dedication they have spent in analyzing international schools. ...

hi esfpaststudent,

Thanks for your sharing.

作者: HaydenNg 時間: 07-10-13 13:22

hi esfpaststudent,

Really appreciate your sharing.

原文章由 esfpaststudent 於 07-10-13 08:02 硐表
Hi all,

I randomly came across this forum and was totally surprised by everything I saw. I was totally impressed by parents efforts and dedication they have spent in analyzing international schools. ...

作者: rdc888 時間: 07-10-13 15:46

原文章由 esfpaststudent 於 07-10-13 08:02 硐表
Hi all,

I randomly came across this forum and was totally surprised by everything I saw. I was totally impressed by parents efforts and dedication they have spent in analyzing international schools. ...

Hi esfpaststudent,
Really appreciated your sharing. By the way, which ESF school are you in before?

作者: christf 時間: 07-10-13 21:59

提示: 作者被禁止或刪除內容自動屏蔽

作者: JennyL 時間: 07-10-14 00:14

christf, So glad you too can come back safe. :)

Many people are mixing up "Mathematics" and "Arithmatic" ie calculation. The illusion of local school students are better in math is probably because some people are merely comparing some simple "skills". As an example, many local K3 kids can already recite the chinese times table "gau yan gor". But IS students do not start learning multiplication until Year 3. They spend a lot of time learning the concept of multiplication and would learn the times table very slowly. Now if we are to ask students to compete in doing multiplication at the age of 8, IS students would almost surely lose.

However, Math is more than simple calculation. Math in daily live would never be simply 79 x 94 = ? Math in daily live involves the understanding of the problem itself, and then developing a math sentence for calculation. And Math as a subject is much more than straight foward calculation. IS students do have better English skills and are generally much better at critical thinking and analysing the problem. Now, I wonder whether a local school Form 3 student can really perform as well in Math if he is to do the same test paper an IS student does of the same age levels, particularly the paper comprises lots of "word problems".

[ 本文章最後由 JennyL 於 07-10-14 00:44 編輯 ]

作者: JennyL 時間: 07-10-14 00:38

原文章由 esfpaststudent 於 07-10-13 08:02 硐表
Hi all,

I randomly came across this forum and was totally surprised by everything I saw. I was totally impressed by parents efforts and dedication they have spent in analyzing international schools. ...

Thanks for sharing.

作者: 阿胡 時間: 07-10-14 10:24

原文章由 JennyL 於 07-10-14 00:14 硐表
christf, So glad you too can come back safe. :)

Many people are mixing up "Mathematics" and "Arithmatic" ie calculation. The illusion of local school students are better in math is probably because ...

你講得對, 數學(mathematics)同算術(arithmatics)確實不同. 但在中學初等數學這個程度上, 當然不是100%, 但至少絕大部分都是算術, 這包括中學最後一年學的微積分.

local schools 和 ISs在數學學習這點上, 是完全不同的. 前者寧願犧牲其他方面的發展, 而要求學生做大量重複的訓練; 而從後者因為學習數學的時間太少, 畢業的學生好多就連一些基本的運算都不熟悉, 但美其名曰重視對數學的理解. 我個人的觀點是, 不是"理解"不重要, 但如基本的運算都不能做到, 學生又能理解什麼呢? 基本的運算是理解數學的第一步.

結果是, local schools培養了大量的會數學運算的"庸才", 而ISs就連這樣的"庸才"都不多, 但時不時會出幾個既會運算又能理解的"天才". 哈哈.

如果孩子將來會學工程, IS的數學夠嗎?

這是我對自己孩子讀IS較擔心的問題之一.

作者: Cayenne 時間: 07-10-14 12:03

原文章由 esfpaststudent 於 07-10-13 08:02 硐表
Hi all,
I randomly came across this forum and was totally surprised byeverything I saw. I was totally impressed by parents efforts anddedication they have spent in analyzing international schools. ...

Thanks for sharing.
May you have every success in your future !

原文章由阿胡於 07-10-14 10:24 硐表
...如果孩子將來會學工程, IS的數學夠嗎?

這點我不能苟同, 道理十分簡單.

首先, 本地 IS ( 起碼是一線的那幾間 ), 程度和水準, 比英美大部份中學為高.; 即是 : 大部份英美中學生數學水平未必及得上香港的 IS 學生.

而鐵一般的事實卻是 : 英美絕大部份的中學生, 升讀自己大學的工程系都沒有出現問題, 那又何況香港的 IS 學生呢 ? 我個人認識一些香港 IS 學生, 更在海外頂尖大學的數學系拿到頂尖的成績. 不過, 當然你可以說 : 這是個別例子.

但無可否認, 儘管香港的本地中學生在中學時代可能計數會較叻, 但一到 undergrad/postgrad , 己佔不到「鬼仔」任何甜頭, 所以在國際科技數理領域, 主要仍是洋人天下.

這個現象, 值得各位以為 local school 的數學較佳的人深思.

[ 本文章最後由 Cayenne 於 07-10-14 12:06 編輯 ]

作者: mattsmum 時間: 07-10-14 14:55

thanks for sharing.

i heard about this for quite a few years.

it is not only about what type of school, it is about the cultural difference / education mode.

原文章由 esfpaststudent 於 07-10-13 08:02 硐表
Hi all,

I randomly came across this forum and was totally surprised by everything I saw. I was totally impressed by parents efforts and dedication they have spent in analyzing international schools. ...

作者: GoCanucksGo 時間: 07-10-14 16:58

My question is : What proof do you have for your "鐵一般的事實"?

My experience as a Math TA in a Canadian university tells me that many engineering students and science students in Canada are ill equiped to handle first year Math courses and beyond. You really have to see it to believe it. I constantly encounter blank test papers or test papers filled with non-sense. And bear in mind, these students all have at least above average grade in Math in highschool in order to be accepted into the Engineering program.

While I agree with the emphasis on learning the "theory" of Mathematics, IMHO, there is not enough stress or time spent on arithmetic in the North American education. (I hope we can all agree that the Canadian education philosophy is pretty similar to that of America.) The ability to compute is a pre-requisite of "real" math. Even with the emphasis on theory and understanding, most engineering students have difficulty grasping applied math concepts.

I am not suggesting whether the HK method or the IS method of teaching Math is better, I am merely pointing out that there are many significant short falls in the IS method. This is just my $0.02.

原文章由 Cayenne 於 07-10-14 12:03 硐表
而鐵一般的事實卻是 : 英美絕大部份的中學生, 升讀自己大學的工程系都沒有出現問題, 那又何況香港的 IS 學生呢 ?

[ 本文章最後由 GoCanucksGo 於 07-10-14 17:16 編輯 ]

作者: yymom07 時間: 07-10-14 17:44

Thank esfpaststudent for giving us such a detailed and insightful insider comment on international schools. I agree with you totally about sending kids abroad for university education. I may also share my own viewpoints on this too. I had my primary and secondary education in those so-called elite traditional schools in HK. Then I went to an "elite" local university and got my first degree there. After that, I went to the US to study for my Master's and Ph.D. And as esfpaststudent pointed out, only after I went abroad when I knew that how my study in the local university was wasted

(I am more unlucky in this sense

). In these past years, I kept on asking this same question, "what would I choose if I were to go back to my undergraduate study again?" And the answer is definitely "go abroad". I would have even chosen a different career path! But bygone is bygone, now comes the next generation and I have decided to send my son to ESF and have determined to send him abroad for his degree (no question about that).

原文章由 esfpaststudent 於 07-10-13 08:02 硐表
Hi all,

I randomly came across this forum and was totally surprised by everything I saw. I was totally impressed by parents efforts and dedication they have spent in analyzing international schools. ...

作者: Cayenne 時間: 07-10-14 21:45

原文章由 GoCanucksGo 於 07-10-14 16:58 硐表
My question is : What proof do you have for your "鐵一般的事實"?
My experience as a Math TA in a Canadian university tells me that many engineering students and science students in Canada are ill equ ...

My proof lies not in any personal anecdotal evidence, but from the fruits of the American / British university systems , and it is a glaring fact to see.

May be the US/British highschoolers can't even count with their toes and fingers, but somehow they end up making the most scientific innovations, taking up the top academic posts, and getting more Fields Medals and Nobel Prizes. And the bridges and buildings their engineers built do not collapse as frequent as one may think .

Something magical must has happened along the way form highschool to postgrad. Can you tell me why ?

作者: JennyBaBa 時間: 07-10-14 22:49 標題: ESF graduates admission to Oxbridge?

Dear ESFpaststudent

Hello. Thanks for your sharing.
Just wonder if the university admission data of ESF is available on the internet? If so, please kindly let us know?

BTW, You wrote 'we get into elite London Unis (LSE, UCL, KCL) quite easily as well as US Ivy Leagues or near-IVy Leaguges without much difficulty..'. How about the chance to get into Oxbridge? Is it uncommon for ESF graduates? I am an Oxbridge alumnus (of course, many years ago) so I am not sure about the current situation.

Please kindly share with us if you see this message.

Thanks.

[ 本文章最後由 JennyBaBa 於 07-10-14 22:50 編輯 ]

作者: 一條毛 時間: 07-10-14 23:15

原文章由阿胡於 07-10-14 10:24 硐表

你講得對, 數學(mathematics)同算術(arithmatics)確實不同. 但在中學初等數學這個程度上, 當然不是100%, 但至少絕大部分都是算術, 這包括中學最後一年學的微積分.

local schools 和 ISs在數學學習這點上, 是完全 ...

Arithmetic or arithmetics (from the Greek word αριθμός = number) is the oldest and most elementary branch of mathematics, used by almost everyone, for tasks ranging from simple day-to-day counting to advanced science and business calculations. In common usage, the word refers to a branch of (or the forerunner of) mathemathics which records elementary properties of certain operations on numbers. Professional mathematicans sometimes use the term higher arithmetic when referring to number theory, but this should not be confused with elementary arithmatic.

Calculus (Latin, calculus, a small stone used for counting) is a branch of mathematics that includes the study of limits, derivatives, integrals, and infinite series, and constitutes a major part of modern university education. Historically, it was sometimes referred to as "the calculus", but that usage is seldom seen today. Calculus has widespread applications in science and engineering and is used to solve complicated problems for which algebra alone is insufficient. Calculus builds on algebra, trigonomentry, and analytic geometry and includes two major branches, differential calculus and integral calulus, that are related by the fundamental theorem of calculus. In more advanced mathematics, calculus is usually called analysis and is defined as the study of functions. It was developed by Sir Isaac Newton and Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz.

(From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Please don't confuse.

作者: 阿胡 時間: 07-10-14 23:57

我所指的算術, 是在廣義的意義下. 對大多數專業數學家來說, 學會了微積分, 還未能算是進了數學的大門, 而只能說是剛剛摸到門釘. 高中最後一年, 學生只是學了一些微積分運算. 這正是我所說的"算術"的意思.

培養一個專業數學家, 大部分的大學數學系都會以Mathematical Analysis, Linear Algebra 和Abstract Algebra作為中心(core)課程. 也就算數學入門了.

好像離主題越來越遠.

作者: GoCanucksGo 時間: 07-10-15 07:29

First, my apology for making this such a long post. I just have too much to say......

I do not wish to hijack this thread, but I will make one last argument.

I will start with a quote from Simon Singh's "Fermat's Enigma" :
Despite having received very little formal education in his home village Kumbakonam in South India, Ramanujan was able to create theorems and solutions that had evaded mathematicians in the West. In Mathematics the experience that comes wigh age seems less important than the intuition and daring of youth.
End Quote

The fact that most Fields Medal went to Westerners does not proof that the Westerner's method of teaching Mathematics is superior. This merely shows the inequity of the modern society, that hunderds of young Ramanujan do not have the opportunity to impress the world with their talent.

Also, don't you find it troubling that many "US/British highschoolers can't even count with their toesand fingers"? Those are not the people who "end up making the most [exciting] scientificinnovations, taking up the top academic posts, and getting more FieldsMedals and Nobel Prizes". No, they were left behind by the education system and was given an easy way out. They can only get minimum pay job later on in life. The drop-out rate in US is eye-popping. And even those who manage to graduate from high school, many took the path of easier math, ie, learning how to compute for everyday situation instead of learning about the heart and soul of math.

The reason why "the bridges and buildings their engineersbuilt do not collapse as frequent as one may think" is because engineering students went through rigorous training in University. But this is not the advancement in "國際科技數理領域" that you mentioned in your previous posts. They are merely following a set of well-tested formulas and applying them. No innovation whatsoever.

And finally, to answer your point of "Something magical must has happened along the way form highschool to postgrad. Can you tell me why ?". I can tell you why. It is because of all students, 25-30% cannot do basic arithmetic and/or drop out of school. 50% struggles through high school math, can perform basic arithmetic, but lack the interest to do anything that involves math in later life. Of the remaining 20-25%, 99% of them end up in the applied math field (accountants, engineers, finance, and most fields of science) (that's me!!!). The remaining 0.2%, ie the cream of the crop, achieves the ultimate prize: PhD in Math or Stat. And some of them are the Fields Medal winner that you mentioned. Nothing magical here, just a natural selection of the best at play. And it re-iterates my point of "global inequity" -- I am sure it is the same process in China, although the percentages may differ. However, many of the people who would have belonged to the 0.2% were not given an education in the first place, were not given a chance to shine!!!

原文章由 Cayenne 於 07-10-14 21:45 硐表

My proof lies not in any personal anecdotal evidence, but from the fruits of the American / British university systems , and it is a glaring fact to see.

May be the US/British highschoolers can't ...

作者: WYmom 時間: 07-10-15 08:11

原文章由 GoCanucksGo 於 07-10-15 07:29 硐表
First, my apology for making this such a long post. I just have too much to say......

I do not wish to hijack this thread, but I will make one last argument.

I will start with a quote from Simon Si ...

Why this topic becomes a discussion of Maths in IS?

Practically speaking, I like the detail teaching of concepts of Maths in ESF, but for numerical calculation, we need to give the kids some exercises at home to practise more.  As they don't have much homework to do except reading everyday, they have the interest and time to do some supplementary exercise at home without pushing.

I particularly like the teaching of Science and other subjects such as History and Geography in ESF, they really initiate high interest for kids.  In local schools, kids have to memorize a lot of words in Science, which are usually very difficult and the focus shrift to dictations of those words.  In ESF, they teach by asking students to do experiments and making things themselves, or through exploration into nature and real life, making the studies really interesting.  My kids really enjoy studying those subjects.

So I always say that studying in IS is not just talking about learning English.  I believe it is more about getting an all-round education, training of analytical and critical skills and learn to be self-confident and independent.

No school is perfect, so if Chinese and Maths numerical calculation exercise is not enough at school, we can supplement them at home.  In local schools, parents also need to supplement a lot tutor classes after school in addition to the heavy homework workload.  To me, keeping the learning initiative and motivation for life is more important.

[ 本文章最後由 WYmom 於 07-10-15 08:29 編輯 ]

作者: 阿胡 時間: 07-10-15 11:30

原文章由 WYmom 於 07-10-15 08:11 硐表

Why this topic becomes a discussion of Maths in IS?

Practically speaking, I like the detail teaching of concepts of Maths in ESF, but for numerical calculation, we need to give the kids some exerci ...

WYmom,

我相信很多IS的父母, 正是像你所講, 會在課外增加數學練習. 但一般效果不如在學校好. 當孩子進入中學後, 往往不願意做父母給的數學練習. 當年我大兒子不願意做的一個原因是, "我每個學期數學都是A, 為什麼還要做這麼多?" 現在他讀大學了, 才知道IS的數學練習做得不夠.

我不喜歡本地名校, 所以幾個孩子都會去讀IS. 但IS的平均數學程度真是不高. 如果將來他們在美加讀大學, 問題也不算太大, 因為同學一樣麻麻. 但如讀本地大學, 一定非常辛苦.

作者: father_ho 時間: 07-10-15 14:55

原文章由 esfpaststudent 於 07-10-13 08:02 硐表
Hi all,

I randomly came across this forum and was totally surprised by everything I saw. I was totally impressed by parents efforts and dedication they have spent in analyzing international schools. ...

Dear esfpaststudent,

Thanks for your sharing. In my opinion, the most important thing is the mode of training by IS is let the student seek for knowledge rather than just race for marks and hence wasting their time. That's why even student in esf or IS didn't score very high marks in public exam., the elite oversea U's still eager for them.

I admit and support entering IS actually should not just aim at their training for high academic standard but rather adapt to their culture (That's why I still hesitate about real IS and still let my kids in their 'local school'). What I think perfectly is school can train up my kids under local culture but adopting the good points(approach) on teaching methodolgy. Seems a bit too ideal

作者: WYmom 時間: 07-10-15 15:19

原文章由 father_ho 於 07-10-15 14:55 硐表

Dear esfpaststudent,

Thanks for your sharing. In my opinion, the most important thing is the mode of training by IS is let the student seek for knowledge rather than just race for marks and hence w ...

I don't think that if students do not score high in public exams, overseas elite schools will still keen to accept them. It is simply not true. As I see so far, ESF students have to score high to enter elite overseas Us in other countries.

I also don't think that there is any problem with the culture in ESF or other IS schools. The multi-cultural /international envionment is very valuable and cannot be found in any other bilingual local schools like CKY or Victoria.

作者: tomo 時間: 07-10-15 16:10

I would like to believe that one of the reasons why IS is better than local schools is that they cultivate 'global citizens' who are accepting of other cultures and differences , who try to reach out to those in society who are not as priviledged or lucky as themselves and then use their 'privileged' position to make their society and this world a better place.... But if these people are only 'working' for their own selves , building a nice portfolio, getting into an elite university , and then an elite job, and carving a comfortable nest for themselves, feeling superior to local students... than I rreally don't see any difference between the local education system and IS.Maybe I have too high expectations of the IS system.

原文章由 WYmom 於 07-10-15 15:19 硐表

I don't think that if students do not score high in public exams, overseas elite schools will still keen to accept them. It is simply not true. As I see so far, ESF students have to score high to ...

作者: JasonDad 時間: 07-10-16 11:58

I totally agree with what ToTo said.

Global vision, moral education and thinking skill are far
more important than academic result or a diploma from
an elite unversity.

As a matter of fact, pure honor degree does not
necessarily mean a fortune ( I am not saying higher pay ).
Person who makes a fortune nowadays and deems as
suceessful figure by the public relies on what I mention
above like global vision and thinking skill. No one will ask
Bill gates, Kar Shing Li, or Buffet Warren which university
they graduate from.

If you just expect your kids to be a mere professional, like being a doctor, a lawyer or accountant. I can assure you
that it is not neccesary for you to let your child study in
IS. Local school in Tin Shui Wai will do. Simply pushing
your kids to do more exercises, recite more, do
more past papers before exam and learn more exam skill.
I know lots of professional they graduated from local 屋村
中學, some of them are working for me. No boosting.

I think we should focus on all round education,
arouse our child's studying interest and encourage lift long
education. This I think is a right way contributing a
person's success. That's what IS does better than local
school in my opinion.

Jason Dad

作者: WYmom 時間: 07-10-16 12:38

原文章由 JasonDad 於 07-10-16 11:58 硐表
I totally agree with what ToTo said.

Global vision, moral education and thinking skill are far
more important than academic result or a diploma from
an elite unversity.

As a matter of fact, pure ...

I don't think parents can control the kids' future or career, I won't expect what my kids to be, just let them to be what they like to be as long as they are on the right track.  Studying in IS or local depends whether they are suitable or not, and if parents can afford.  If they are capable, they can enter elite Us and lead a good career and life, they can contribute to the society in any job.

As parents, we just try to give the best we can, let the kids have more exposure and experience, enjoy their studies and school lives.  Who knows what will they be in future?

ESF do involve students in a lot of community work, even primary students will help to give some presents to the elderly or poor during X'mas seasons, or do some performance etc.  In secondary schools, students will do volunteer work in their communities or even help people overseas.  Not sure if other IS implement the same.

作者: christf 時間: 07-10-16 15:11

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作者: Annie123 時間: 07-10-17 11:51

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作者: Annie123 時間: 07-10-17 11:54

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作者: Annie123 時間: 07-10-17 12:07

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作者: Annie123 時間: 07-10-17 12:13

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作者: father_ho 時間: 07-10-17 18:39

原文章由 WYmom 於 07-10-15 15:19 硐表

I don't think that if students do not score high in public exams, overseas elite schools will still keen to accept them. It is simply not true. As I see so far, ESF students have to score high to ...

Dear WYMom,

Please don't be sensitive or may be I didn't expressed my feeling accurately. I just refer to if for approx. same standard of student, the elite oversea U's will perfer the IS student in regarding their wider exposure on reasoning training and similar atmosphere in the IS. For the culture in IS, I support they preserve their tradition (in fact it is their culture and should not be changed because of admission on local student) . It is my family may not be totally adapting it (such as changing our hobbies) before I change my kids to that type of school. I simply don't want a cultural conflict inside my family in future.

作者: 阿胡 時間: 07-10-17 19:21

Annie123,

恕我孤陋寡聞, 我所講是基於如下幾點:

1) 我大兒子在香港讀IS, 當年算是該校最好幾個畢業生之一, 畢業後進了美國最好的大學之一. 儘管如此, 他的大學數學課程讀得很辛苦.

2) 他的同學, 不少也在美國讀頂級大學, 數學課程也是讀得很辛苦.

3) 見過不少讀本地大學的IS學生, 不客氣地說, 數學很差. 可能本來這些學生在中學時就是差學生.

4) 也見過一些從澳洲, 加拿大, 美國返香港讀大學的學生, 數學慘不忍睹.

5) 見過幾位香港名校畢業生, 不是第一, 第二的學生, 但肯定是當年學校最好的學生之一. 數學不錯. 但進不了美國top 20大學.

所以, 我非常同意esfpaststudent所說, 如果在香港讀IS, 可以進美國頂級大學, 而學費又不是問題, 本地大學根本不須考慮. 而讀IS如是為了將來讀本地大學, 會遇到好多意想不到的(常常是壞的)事情.

當然, 我不是說IS不好, 否則也不會將我小朋友送去讀. 但是, 香港IS在數學的教育上, 確有很多改進的空間.

[ 本文章最後由阿胡於 07-10-17 22:13 編輯 ]

作者: Share 時間: 07-10-17 21:03

BK 一向卧虎藏龍,高手雲集,

可是最近已少見這些這麼高水平的discussion.

真精彩,可惜我的數學平太差,只能希望從中偷師，幫孩子找到一條容易些的路。

作者: hysterical 時間: 07-10-17 22:00

Just wanted to provide some insights into the education system in the US. Having gone to junior high school and high school in the states, and then subsequently graduated from UC Berkeley, I think that I will share from experience the math level and also college admissions issue.

1. The students can take different levels of Math in high school according to their individual level. That means that if he is very advanced in math, then he can even take college level math while still in high school. Of course there are always students who are not so good at math, and there are the average ones. But there are always very advanced ones as well. There is really no limit of what they can take in high school. Thus, it's not fair to say that everyone from Australia, Canada, or US are very poor in Math.

2. Admissions to university in the US is not just looking at one subject. Since English is the primary language there, the student's proficiency in English is obviously a critical factor in consideration. Math is also very important, but then so are many other things in the student's portfolio. It is very important to show that he is involved in the community, and have a passion or hobby that he has followed throughout his academic career. It can be a musical instrument or sports or debate or drama, etc. The point is that he needs to show that he has a significant acheivement outside the academics.

For example, a friend of mine had all A's in high school (4.0 GPA), and he did okay on the SAT, but he could not get into the top universities. Why not? Because he was a so-called "nerd", as he did not have any activities outside the school life.

The above reason is probably why IS students in HK have a better chance of admission into the top universities in the US, compared to those who went to a famous local school.

3. In the US, the real academic education begins at the university level. I believe that the previous 12 years are really preparation for the real thing. So, of course the math would be hard. The English is very hard too, and so are other subjects. Also, it depends on what major the student is intended to take. For Science majors, pre-med, pre-engineering, of course math would be very hard. For business majors, the math requirements would be less challenging.

All in all, I think IS and local system both have its own advantages and disadvantages. It really depends on the child's personality and learning style, and also most importantly where he intends to attend university.

Hope the above information is helpful. Cheers!

作者: Paris 時間: 07-10-17 23:40

Annie,

How do you train your children math, do you give supplementary exercises or extra class. Please share.

原文章由 Annie123 於 07-10-17 11:51 硐表
結果是, local schools培養了大量的會數學運算的"庸才", 而ISs就連這樣的"庸才"都不多

作者: YOSASHTO 時間: 07-10-18 19:16

As WYmom said a while back: Why has this discussion, originally about IS education, turned into a discussion on Mathematics?

I believe the strengths of an IS education is beyond that of academics.  IS students are expected to understand the world around them, and be able to relate to events in the real world.  Therefore, instead of churning out "little academics" who can do math problems very quickly, or memorize pages and pages of textbooks and classnotes, students become thinkers, and therefore know their place and can contribute to society at a very young age.

My son is at HKIS Grade 5.  This year, they have to rotate to lead discussions on current events (once every 2 weeks).  They have to pick out a current event, usually from the news (can be local or international), present it to the class, and reflect on how this event affects them, and what they would like to do about it.  From what my son tells me, kids have talked about bigger issues like climate change, species extinction, the HK stock market, etc.  They have also reported on local news issues relating to crime and other wrongdoings.  At the end of the presentation, they have to answer questions from their classmates as well.  They get scored on their presentations, covering not only the content, but their personal reflections as well.  I believe this process helps educate a child who is able to care about his community, and able to independently learn from non-school related events.

Another example is history (they call it Social Studies).  Instead of reading about a certain period of time, they are studying WHY certain events happened, and WHY the leaders at that time made their decisions.  They not only have to learn about a specific person (of their choice within the period of time), they have to understand how that person thinks.  They are expected to act out that person, and put themselves in that person's shoes.  They are given a set of questions which they have to reflect on, relating to how that person would view certain issues.  That, I regard, is the proper way to learn history.  History is all about understanding why past civilizations did certain things, and how these things lead to where they are today.  Reflecting on this, we can understand why people behave the way they do today, thereby gaining a better understanding of our own selves.

While I agree that academics is important, and both my husband and I have first degrees in Engineering, we hardly use math in the academics sense anymore.  The little bit of math we use now are mathematics application in the real world.  Therefore, the ability to apply what was learned in school into real life is much more important than the academics itself.  Also, thinking back, as Annie123 said, there was a lot more language and analytical skills required back in Uni than math skills.

Just my 2 cents worth.  Sorry for such a long post.

[ 本文章最後由 YOSASHTO 於 07-10-18 19:20 編輯 ]

作者: Saturn 時間: 07-10-18 21:55

hysterical,

Thanks a million for your sharing. I trust the info. you provided has reflected no less than 99.9% of the truth.

:

Saturn.

原文章由 hysterical 於 07-10-17 22:00 硐表
Just wanted to provide some insights into the education system in the US. Having gone to junior high school and high school in the states, and then subsequently graduated from UC Berkeley, I think tha ...

作者: Cayenne 時間: 07-10-19 23:34

Just received my copy of the 2007 HKIS Annual Report, which contains this year's college acceptance data. Here are only some of the figures as the complete list is very long :

US Colleges :

Princeton (2)
Harvard (1)
Stanford (3)
Columbia (5)
Cornell (6)
Brown (1)
Dartmouth (1)
Duke (3)
U Penn (3)
WUSTL (6)
U of Chicago (3)
Northwestern (6)
Johns Hopkins (3)
UC Berkeley (4)
UCLA (4)
UC San Diego (10)
U Mitch (5)
USC (10)
Georgetown (4)
Boston U (26)
Carnegie Mellon (11)
NYU (6), NYU Florence (3)
U of Rochester (3)
Syracuse (11)
Wellesley (1)
Wesleyan (1) ( 宋美齢母校 )
Parsons School of Design ( 8)
Rhode Island School of Design (3)
Purdue (18)
Middlebury (1)
Vassar (4)
Tufts ( 10)
.
.
UK Universities:

Oxford (1)
Cambridge (1)
KCL (1)
Nottingham (1)
Warick (1)
Durham (1)
.
.

Canadian Universities :

Waterloo (2)
UBC (18)
UT (9)
U Western Ontario (6)
Queen's ( 7)
Alberta (1)
Simon Fraser (1)
McGill (5)
York (1)
. . . .

Others :

HKU (2)
CUHK (1)
Waseda 早稲田大学 ( 1)
Swiss Hotel Management School (1)
Les Roches, Swiss School of Hotel Menagement (1)

[ 本文章最後由 Cayenne 於 07-10-19 23:40 編輯 ]

作者: tnt2ndhb 時間: 07-10-20 00:25

我大伯早年英皇中學畢業拿全費獎學金到美國伯克萊讀數, 唸完數博留在美國, 從打工到合資軟件開發, 現在在上海已有員工逾千, 他對我們說: 中國人很有做數的精神, 從小就開始題山題海地訓練, 從多、到準、到快、到深, 這和普遍國人認為數學和理科能有較好的出路有關, 也有很多小孩子很快就因為這種永遠高一線的數訓而burn out, 他在大學學數不是求答案, 而是找為甚麼1+1一定=2, 過程好寂寞也很好玩, 他的外國同學不像亞洲同學那麼關心出路的問題, 反而視研究數學為終生事業(不是職業),所以, 為甚麼諾貝爾獎總是外國人多.

作者: mattsmum 時間: 07-10-20 19:24

我倒想從另一就業角度看本地／国際學校的問題.

見過不少半唐番,他們很多都有才华華,但有時想:要他們為那几大財閥打工,可能是行不通的,那都是十分傳统的中国人,星期六日也要返工.

但要他們為國際化的機构工作,可能如魚得水.

原文章由 tnt2ndhb 於 07-10-20 00:25 硐表
我大伯早年英皇中學畢業拿全費獎學金到美國伯克萊讀數, 唸完數博留在美國, 從打工到合資軟件開發, 現在在上海已有員工逾千, 他對我們說: 中國人很有做數的精神, 從小就開始題山題海地訓練, 從多、到準、到快、到深, ...

作者: hysterical 時間: 07-10-21 22:49

Saturn,

Good to meet a soul-mate on this matter!

Regarding the HKIS 2007 college admissions results, really impressive! Even the worst uni is not so bad... What about for ESF secondary, any published data?

歡迎光臨教育王國 (/)