IB students to US colleges

acdad

IB students to US colleges

Recently we are planning when we should send my daughter to US for her college education. We are targeting 2 years community colleges in California.  We talked with 2 overseas education consultants and it seems to us that their knowledge about this topic is quite limited.

As far as we know,
1.  IB students would  get a MYP certificate after their year 11 with some reqt fulfilled.
2.  Most community colleges in CA would normally accept students who completed their secondary (Form 5).
3.  The UC system would grant certain transfer credits for IB diploma (30 credits) and certificate (8 credits)  holders.

My question is: Would colleges in US consider MYP certificates equivalent to  the completion of secondary education (F5)  in HK?

Can anyone share exp and info on this topic.

Thanks.

[ 本帖最後由 acdad 於 10-10-26 21:08 編輯 ]

acdad

據最近了解, 完成 MYP Year 11 只等如完成 US Grade 10, 完成IB MYP 並不代表中學畢業,如希望以完成 MYP 作一里程碑進修其他海外專上或大學會有問題,其認授性必須完成 DP 才被廣泛接受,  PYP (6)+MYP (5) +DP(2) 全程13 年, 如未决定,小心選擇,尤以美國大學為最終目的地之家長。

原帖由 acdad 於 10-10-17 19:37 發表
IB students to US colleges

Recently we are planning when we should send my daughter to US for her college education. We are targeting 2 years community colleges in California.  We talked with 2 overs ...

Darth

原帖由 acdad 於 10-10-24 00:38 發表
據最近了解, 完成 MYP Year 11 只等如完成 US Grade 10, 完成IB MYP 並不代表中學畢業,如希望以完成 MYP 作一里程碑進修其他海外專上或大學會有問題,其認授性必須完成 DP 才被廣泛接受,  PYP (6)+MYP (5) +DP(2) 全 ...

Taking ESF as an example, ESF students only go to 2 years of kindergarten and start primary at 5 years old which is one year earlier than local school. So students leaves secondary school after finishing IBDP at the same age as local students. Not that they are doing any extra time.

Which school is your child at? Do they have university placement team? Most international schools would arrange for "road shows" of universities (local, UK, US, even Canadian, and Australian etc) at school campus. There are lots of information at those events.

According to my knowledge, a lot of ESF students are entering top US universities.

acdad

U may say a person can start IB PYP earlier than local schools but the time spent on completing his secondary eduation seems more than other systems if we count DP but not MYP as the completion of secondary.

                                                                                          Hong Kong
PYP total 6 years      Year 1- Year 6                       (Primary P1-P6)            
MYP total 5 years    Year 6- Year 11                      ( Secondary Form 1-Form 5)
DP total 2 years       Year 12-  Year 13

1.    Total years for secondary graduation -13 years for IB, 11 years for HK, 12 years for US
A student would need to complete his secondary education in 13 years with IB,  11 years with Hong Kong (Form 5 would be  considered as secondary graduation)  and 12 years with US high school system.

Since all 3 systems use 6 years for their primary education, we can  compare the years in secondary only. Under the IB system, it requires 7 years for a student to complete his secondary education while only 5 years is needed under HK  system. The difference of the time span in the 2 systems is huge. Is that correct?

If MYP should not be viewed as seconday, what it should be called? Why it is named "middle year"? is that becasue it is just a middle programme between PYP and DP which stands nowhere in any other systems?

I am not arguing ESF students taking IB DP programme can get into US universities. I am challenging the recognition of MYP in other systems. Does anyone have specific info to share?

Darth

原帖由 acdad 於 10-10-24 03:30 發表
U may say a person can start IB PYP earlier than local schools but the time spent on completing his secondary eduation seems more than other systems if we count DP but not MYP as the completion of sec ...

You have very wrong interpretation of different curriculum.

What I consider is that, after 15 years of pre-u education ( 2 years in kindergarten, 6 years in primary, 7 years in secondary school ), they are spending the same time at school when compared to local students under the new curriculum.

If we are talking about the old curriculum, students need to complete Form 7 to enter a university (not Form 5 as you claimed).

If you are switching curriculum, school advisors usually compare by looking at the age of the student and not the "name" of which year level he is in. For example, if you complete Grade 3 in the US, and move to the UK, you go to Year 5. Not that you have skipped any year, but Year 5 in the US equals to Grade 4 in the US. You can ask any international school to confirm this practice. They have experience in handling students from different curriculum/countries.

Recognition of MYP? If you consider the age of the student, when completing MYP, would be the same as completing Grade 10 in the US/Canada or Form 4 in Hong Kong. So you get the same recognition as you get for a US/Canadian Grade 10 or HK Form 4  student.

No one here is arguing. I am here to correct your misunderstanding or misinterpretation.

acdad

"If we are talking about the old curriculum, students need to complete Form 7 to enter a university (not Form 5 as you claimed)."

Thanks for trying to correct me but let's share what I know, which is actually facts but not from my interpretation.

However, I said the duration of completing "secondary education", not  "pre-U education". Even if we use "pre-U education", your understanding is still challengeable.

1.   Community colleges in US do accept Form 5 graduates from HK.

There are a good number of students using this path to enter the 4 years universities in US.

2.   Age is one of the consideration not the only consideration when a student need to change curriculum.

For example, can a student graduated from MYP admitted in a  diploma course  of IVE just because he meets the age requirment for that course if the minimum acadamic reqt of that course is Form 5 graduates ?

Or if a student want to work for the government after MYP graduation, would he be considered as a Form 5 graduate?

Once again, I am not saying IB is a good or bad curriculum but I am trying to remind/discuss with other parents the recognition of MYP in both the acadamic and  real world.

BTW, it is a forum that everyone can share the info and express their opinion. However, the points made must be valid or that would be misleading others.

Darth

How old is your child? Which school is he in at the moment? You seem to know so little about IB propgram.

I think you still did not get my point, did you?

MYP is the equivalent of Form 4.
IBDP is the equivalent of Form 6. (Do not be misled by the name, IBDP is in no way anything similar to post secondary diploma. Completing IBDP is merely completing secondary program.)

After making such mapping (this is the most common mapping international schools use when accepting students from local school), is the picture clearer?

I do not see why you would expect MYP to be the "completion point" of secondary education.

You are too hostile. I was not defending the IB curriculum or saying IB is good. In fact, IB is NOT suitable for everyone. Many people are better off NOT going to IB school.

IB is a very demanding program. You need to be good at everything. Both science and humanities have to be taken in MYP and IBDP. You need to do both sports and arts in MYP and IBDP, not just running in PE or drawing in art class but lots of written work/essay as well. You need at least one "Language A", which equals to the combination of language + literature in the local curriculum. You need to spend lots of time outside class doing services or volunteering work. You need to be a "jack of all trade" and yet "master in everything" too. If you are not one of these people, it is better to stay away from IB.

Most average IBDP students are not setting their eyes on CC or IVE but rather the best universities they can possibly get to. We are talking about Oxford, Princeton, McGill or HKU. Of course, most average students are probably not going to these "top tier" universities, but rather other second tier universities. But again, the initial target would be universities. CC would be merely a backup.

You probably have your own reasons to set your target on CC or IVE. I have lived in Canada and the US. So I know what CC are. I totally understand you concern as to why your child should do the 2 years IBDP if he is going to CC or IVE. In this respect, I suggest that you make enquiries with the schools of your interests on how they "look at the IB curriculum. I have done my own researches with various universities in the US and Canada. As far as I know, most decent US and Canadian universities have clear admission criteria for IBDP students.

Even top tiers universities want good students. They are all extremely friendly to answer your queries. I guess doing a non-local curriculum would require extra work from the parent/school/student. Parents/students need to do their own due diligence and make enquiries.

I have asked many universities to give me admission guidelines. May be you should as well with the CC or IVE of your interest.

Last, if you still have concerns, you might want to choose an international school that provide the US curriculum, of even better simple choose a local school. If you really want to consider an IB school, I suggest you arrange for a school tour and speak to people about your concern. You still have lots of misunderstanding.

[ 本帖最後由 Darth 於 10-10-24 14:11 編輯 ]

acdad

If we take a poll, I beleive at least some if not all parents reading this post  did not know MYP does not equal to secondary completion, although most would target to complete DP .

There are many people out there think they know a lot in IB programmes. I beleive the term U tried to use was  CAS (Creativity , Action, Service). But as repeatedly mentioned in my previous paragraphs, I was not criticizing the content of the IB curriculum. I was just comparing the duration of completing secondary education under a few curriculums.

There are many paths leading to the success of a person and there are numerous definitions on that.

Getting in a reputated U such as Oxford and Princeton may be one of  the most popular targets even for students not taking IB DP. CC is one of the many ways getting into good universities in US.

However, some parents would rather place priority in developing their children to be a reflective, balanced, committed, cooperative, thankful risk taker who would contribute to the community.

Normally admission guidelines of the interested universities could be found under the "admission" and  "student profile" in their websites.

[ 本帖最後由 acdad 於 10-10-24 18:26 編輯 ]

Darth

I was merely trying to tell you things that you did not know or things that you have missed. And you started to show hostility. Why?

The purpose of asking (and answering) here is to share information. May be I should have kept quiet, leaving you to believe that MYP is the end of secondary school.

I repeated many times, MYP is Form 4. That answered your question. And I thought this was the end of the discussion. I do not understand what is the issue now.

Now you are switching to asking why parents should do due diligence ...?  Good point. Wise move. May be we should all keep quiet and let the children take over BK then.

The disgust is coming back again. Every now and then there are people coming to post comments and when you try to correct their misunderstanding, they are unhappy and show hostility. No wonder this place is so quiet. All other IS parents who know even more than I do did not even bother to reply. They were the wise ones.

Whatever. I have no more interest in this discussion.

Good luck with your pursue.

acdad

Yes, one may choose to keep quiet if one cannot persuade another to accept the conclusion (MYP=Form 4)  that one made without valid reasoning to support.

Why MYP is not equal to Form 5 but Form 4 after 5 years study  in MYP and 6 years in PYP?

Why DP is not equal to Form 6 and Form 7?

I did not say MYP is the end of secondary. I only said MYP should be equal to Form 5 by the duration of the programme. And if DP = Form 5, then the duration of using IB DP to complete secondary is 13 years, 11 years under the past curriculum in HK. That's all I have said.

I provided the reasoning by the duration of the programmes and U provided the reasons by the age.



Please do not reply this post. Just let me take the advantage of concluding this post.

Thanks  you!:;pppp:

JTmom

Hi there,
Not sure if you have seen the chart in the link below. It may answer your question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States

Completing 11 years of education would probably not considered completing high school in the U.S. MYP students graduate at age 16 according the ibo.org. If that is true for your daughter, she would probably be considered either completed Grade 10 or Grade 11 (a stretch, I think)according to the chart in the link above. However, the chart also shows various paths to get into universities including  via the community college. Hope it brings more clarity than confusion. Best of luck in your planning.

b.rgds,

原帖由 acdad 於 10-10-17 19:37 發表
IB students to US colleges

Recently we are planning when we should send my daughter to US for her college education. We are targeting 2 years community colleges in California.  We talked with 2 overs ...

acdad

Thanks for sharing. Very comprehensive!

nintendo

I did not say MYP is the end of secondary. I only said MYP should be equal to Form 5 by the duration of the programme. And if DP = Form 5, then the duration of using IB DP to complete secondary is 13 years, 11 years under the past curriculum in HK. That's all I have said.

There are a few points I want to share.

(1) Form 5 in Hong Kong is not exactly completing of high school FOR THE PURPOSE OF ENTRANCE TO UNIVERSITY. I do not believe any universities would consider Form 5 as sufficient. So in Hong Kong, it is still Form 7 that is considered (roughly) the equivalent of completing high school (now it will be Form 6 in a couple of years because of the new 3-3-4). You may ask, why we had this Form 5 "leaving point" for HKCEE. Probably historical reasons because we used to follow what the british did. In a way, you may say that it is like junior high or middle school. Do not forget that 20 years ago not many people were able to afford to go to universities. In those days, many people even chose to leave school at Form 3. So, Form 3 was also one of the "leaving point" for students. Students that could no longer stay in school, left at either Form 3 or Form 5. However, we can never say they have already completed high school. By discussing about "high school", we mean the time that students has completed the required number of years to enter universities. So in Hong Kong, it has always been Form 7.

(2) IBDP is, if you really want to ask for the equivalent, roughly Form 7, or Grade 12 in the US and Canada. I said roughly, because there would never be exactly an equivalent. For instance, the US and Canadian curriculum is very different from the HK curriculum. As another example, the HK curriculum is so much harder than the UK curriculum, yet would never say students in Hong Kong does not have to complete Form 7 to get into British universities.

(3) I do not know how other schools are doing it. But at ESF, students starts P1 at the age of 5. Well, may be they spend more time in primary + secondary, but they spend less time in kindergarten (only 2 years). The total number of years at ESF school was actually less when compared to the old local curriculum. Now they have the new local curriculum, all students finishes school with the same number of years spent.

(4) Well, may be it is a bit confusing for parents just starting to get to know IB. But that is the usual problem have with non local curriculum. Fortunately, most western universities have very clear policies of how they rate students from other curriculum. A lot of admission information can be obtained on websites. Even if individual university have not put that up on the websites, information can be seen in their published admittance brochures or by simply emailing them and asking.

(5) Are you at a point of considering IB? Or is your child already with and IB school? I think almost all accredited IB schools are at the moment international schools and these schools usually have a good team of specialists taking care of university applications. You might want to speak with the specialist at your child's school for more accurate details.

acdad

Thanks for sharing.

I define the completion of secondary as the point which the HK government and most companies use as the entry requirement for their jobs and post -secondary education institutes use as the admission reqt , which is Form 5 in HK. For your information, most community colleges in US recognise Form 5 HKCE as the completion of secondary.

In the old curriculum, there was the Higher Level  (Form 6) which was for entering  C U. So, A-Level Form 7 was not the only curriculum under your definition.

Both of my 2 daughters study in an IS which offers thru train IB programmes. I have no problem having them finished the DP at the same school but just want to remind other parents that MYP is not recognised as secondary completion, which is confirmed by an IBO official I contacted last week.  And as I mentioned before, some parents I know think MYP = secondary completion as well.

The reason I want to discuss this topic in this forum is because I think the logic and reasoning to support  MYP is equivalent  to Form 5 is stronger than it is Form 4. And if MYP is not a leaving point under the IB system, it should share the same name of the  DP or IBO should  simply change the MYP to a 7 years programme to include the DP in it.

Creating  a programme which is not equivalent to other leaving points in other education curriculum is quite inconvenient to the parents and the students.

nintendo

I appreciate your concerns. However, I have already said that, even if we consider finishing IBDP as graduating from high school, the students are NOT doing any extra time at school. No time has been lost.

Local system: 3 + 6 + 6
ESF system: 2 + 6 + 7

Both add up to 15 years at school.

You may want to consider MYP similar to middle school or junior high school. If you are talking about leaving school after MYP, the students has only done 13 years of schooling, which is probably only equal to finishing only Form 3 to Form 4. How can we expect employers to treat junior high students the same as high school students?

I am curious which school are your children in. At my children's school, I have not heard any of the same misunderstanding from parents. Everyone understands that MYP is middle school (as you see from the name) or junior high; and IBDP is high school. And with the family background (including financial background) I guess most students would not stop schooling after MYP anyway.

It appears to me that the school have not provided enough information for you to consider BEFORE your children joined the school.

In any case, it is good that you posted your questions here. Now I see that misunderstanding of IB is so huge amongst most parents in Hong Kong.

ANChan59

acdad

You can see so many parents here try to clarify your misunderstanding about IB. If you still insist your understanding is right, others are wrong. Sorry we can't help you further.

Can you let us know which school your kids are studying?

WYmom

If acdad thinks that MYP completion equals to Form 5, it will be the form 5 or year 11 in UK system, which equals to form 4 or grade 10 in US system.  So in either systems, students need to study 2 more years for entering U.

In ESF schools except the 2 PIS, they have GCSE at Y11 as the exit point, students can then continue to do IBD or go overseas to continue GCEAL or AP.   MYP is not a public exam, but I believe students can enter high schools in other countries at their same age group.  They won't need to study for one more year.

acdad

I may have made a mistake by ignoring the kinder years in my calculation. In my kinder years,  we only had 2 years of kinder.

Since I was educated in HK for primary and secondary under the "old curriculum", I always have the below conception in my mind that

PYP year 1-6 =Primary 1-6
MYP year 7-11 =F1-F5
F5= secondary graduation
DP Year 12 and 13 = F6 and F7

Sorry but I still could not persuade myself  why I need to add 1 or 2 years in  each IB programme to compensate the 1  year in kinder.

I  think if I can finish my kinder years in 2 years , I should be considered as a kinder graduate and have  completed my kinder education, similar concept in primary, matriculation in HL F6 and  AL F6/F7,  3 years U and 4 years U graduates, 1 year vs 2 years MBA degree

Since the elite school in HK such as DBS also  starts the DP year 12 after 5 years education in their secondary, I naturally think the completion of MYP should be viewed as completion of F5 in local schools.

Even though F5 graduate may not find very good posts in local government, it is no doubt that F5 is equal to secondary graduate.

If what I understand above is wrong, I think the IBO should really create a curriculum mapping table in their website and make sure their local IB world school would have one posted in the school's  website with local curriculum map with IB curriculum  to clear the confusion.

Honestly, I would think if we can set MYP=Form 5, it would be a win-win-win-win situation for students , parents, IBO, other post secondary institution such as community colleges

students - exit point for other career and post secondary options

Parents - exit point for financial burden

IBO - given relatively  low enrollement in MYP (35 institues provide IB programmes in HK but only 5 enroll for MYP), it would become more marketable

Other post secondary education institutes - they may have more potential candidates with F5 graduate equivalent

Thanks for reading.

acdad

Thanks for your response.

Although there is no interesting  soccer match being broadcasted  tonight, I feel obligated to reply this one before going to bed.

Most of my friends and relatives with a U degree or Master degree did take classes in community colleges before they transferred to 4 years  universities such as UC Berkerley and Stanford, then continued getting their master degree in reputable U.

Please read  a statement I found in UC website

http://www.universityofcaliforni ... -college/index.html


"Studies prove that community college students who enter UC as juniors perform just as well academically as students who entered UC as freshmen. Their graduation rates are comparable, too. Nearly two-thirds complete a bachelor's degree within three years of entering UC"

I hope the above statement can at least correct some misconceptions on CC in US. Like any U around the world, there are good ones and bad ones.

There is no point for  us  to walk to 廣州 to watch the Asian game if we can take a train. Right?

Pardon me if I offened anyone by answering with this tone. Really sleepy....